Curse

hurdlebeast · Aug 03, 2009, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Priority. That's something we hear a lot.

Seven heroes would be a very, very positive step, so if there's something planned that's an even better use of developer time, great. I assume whatever this thing they're working on is going to amaze and delight us even more than seven heroes would.

Guild Wars 2, mebbe?

I think (personally) that 7 heroes would make the game feel more like a single-player adventure, rather than a true MMORPG...but, I find myself constantly using the 3 hero-4 hench group far more than the +7 humans group. Simply put, it's faster, easier, and more "controllable". Yes hench/heroes will have pathing issues, questionable AI, and less of a human feel to them. Sadly, though, it's still more fun than most PuG are. Unless you are doing a very specific run, it's hard to even find a PuG for 99% of the content. You can't blame the party-finder (or lack thereof); most people are doing end-game speed runs (with very, very specific builds) or PvPing. Those that are doing general PvE are usually running Hero/Hench groups anyways, and not looking for more people, who may be unreliable.

In a nutshell, I don't agree with the idea of an MMORPG being made into just an RPG, but at this point, I think it may be Anet's best move.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 03, 2009, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by hurdlebeast

Guild Wars 2, mebbe?

I was referring to the team that does GW1 updates -_________-

Quote:

Originally Posted by hurdlebeast

I think (personally) that 7 heroes would make the game feel more like a single-player adventure, rather than a true MMORPG

In a nutshell, I don't agree with the idea of an MMORPG being made into just an RPG, but at this point, I think it may be Anet's best move.

1. GW was never a true MMO.

2. Guess what? We're already playing singleplayer. Have been for years. The tards in pickup groups took care of that.

Actually, it's not even the tards so much as the general concept of team-reliant multiplayer. You find me a pickup group that's willing to accept me taking several minutes between every fight to browse 4chan, and I'll find you a pickup group that doesn't exist.

Faer · Aug 03, 2009, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

People who are against 7-hero parties do not want H/H players to have fun, ergo they will disagree with any suggestions to improve heroes.

ArenaNet is against seven heroes.

Guess the devs don't want you to have fun.

Bryant Again · Aug 03, 2009, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Seven heroes would be a very, very positive step, so if there's something planned that's an even better use of developer time, great. I assume whatever this thing they're working on is going to amaze and delight us even more than seven heroes would.

Hopefully it's making the PvE campaigns more user friendly, since that should've been priority since day one. The soloers are totally fine right now, and we can see 99% of the game by ourselves with just 3 heroes. 7 heroes is more appearance and flavor more than function: it's all want, not need. Now that soloers have been catered to, ANet REALLY needs to fix a lot of what's hindering the multiplayer experience from actually being enjoyable.

So yay on 7 heroes, but only under two conditions: 1. Make pugging less of a pain in the ass, 2. balance the game because otherwise we're screwed with another highly powerful but boring cookie cutter.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 03, 2009, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Hopefully it's making the PvE campaigns more user friendly

I'm not sure how they aren't user friendly already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Make pugging less of a pain in the ass

But pugging is inherently a pain in the ass. Making pugging less of a pain in the ass means making pugging less like pugging.

Come to think of it, isn't that exactly why heroes were added?

Bryant Again · Aug 03, 2009, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I'm not sure how they aren't user friendly already.

Easy to fail missions that take you back to outpost, lack of a more universal grouping system, having to stay in the outpost while waiting for a party, not being able to replace leavers, not being able to join mid-mission, not being able to kick grievers/leechers, etc.

While some of those are a bit up in the air, that doesn't mean that pugging doesn't have the potential to be a terrifyingly nasty experience.

zwei2stein · Aug 03, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Easy to fail missions that take you back to outpost, lack of a more universal grouping system, having to stay in the outpost while waiting for a party, not being able to replace leavers, not being able to join mid-mission, not being able to kick grievers/leechers, etc.

While some of those are a bit up in the air, that doesn't mean that pugging has the potential to be a terrifyingly nasty experience.

If theese were in game since begining, we would likely not have this thread.

Improvavel · Aug 03, 2009, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Heroes are overpowered...you don't need to spend 15 min to form it.

Again, until PvE has a rank of players, PvE isn't a competition between players.

Any suggestion that a non-existent PvE competition has priority over the the fun of enjoying building a team skills is a non argument.

People that want bragging rights about being better than other players have PvP.

Second, by your logic they need to either buff h/h play style or nerf human play style, because human team will be able to complete certain areas a lot faster than h/h (incidentally the more profitable areas), more than making up for that "time advantage" heroes have.

Third heroes have associated costs.

bhavv · Aug 03, 2009, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theocrat

ArenaNet is against seven heroes.

Guess the devs don't want you to have fun.

And all the not so wonderful updates we have had since NF really show how much of a clue Anet have about what is fun in this game.

Go go Ursan Way, Perma SF Sins, PVE only skills, Consumables and everything else.

7 heroes would be better for this game then any of that ever was.

TottWriter · Aug 03, 2009, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

If theese were in game since begining, we would likely not have this thread.

Not necessarily. There is still the fundamental problem that GW was never intended to be like other MMOs. While the lack of compulsory grind does make for better playing, it also means that there is now a serious drop-off in players due to its age. A better pugging system would help stave off the need for more malleable AI helpers, but in the end, the lack of players in general is partly what's forcing the hand here.

I get the feeling the Devs are holding off giving us 7 heroes because it's like admitting the number of active players is constantly going down.

It's a shame that the game mechanics don't allow people from around the world to play together more easily really. I don't know about you guys, but I hardly ever even bother looking through the International districts. If it wasn't for the blessings of the Gods, I'd almost say merge them. Admittedly, you wouldn't have many more players, but you'd get some.

jray14 · Aug 03, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

But pugging is inherently a pain in the ass. Making pugging less of a pain in the ass means making pugging less like pugging.

If we had something like a global party search system, I bet PUGs would be a lot better. We'd get a lot less of the "Is there a mission here? Oh yeah, LGF" players. And many veteran players with nothing specific to do---for example, I'd enjoy this---could browse the global search and see where people need help and then help out just for fun. Without any "need" to complete specific missions or quests, I'd be a lot more relaxed, team-friendly, and tolerant of the teammates who are just trying to zip their way through the mission to get it under their belt.

So, 7 heroes + global party search system = win!

Ate of DK · Aug 03, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

No 7 heroes please, for various reasons mentioned allready. Thank you.

Improvavel · Aug 03, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ate of DK

No 7 heroes please, for various reasons mentioned allready. Thank you.

There is only one reason that is somewhat valid - Anet distribution of their limited resources .

Other reasons against 7 heroes have no influence on PvE PUG play.

Why?

H/H players won't PUG because they don't want to and the game allows them to do that. If you force them to PUG you can bet a large majority of this player group will leave the game.

Players that play in small family/friends groups/guild groups won't play PUG either.

PvP players, for obvious reasons, won't do PvE PUG either.

The argument of 7 heroes or even 3 heroes per player or even henchmen, is as weak regarding PUG play as is the PvE argument regarding PvP play.

GW is successful for several reasons - some people like to believe that it is because it is not p2p (as if that is a bad thing).

I believe one of the main reasons is because it offers a party based game that can be played solo.

That was one of the reasons it attracted me.

Ignoring that team build is one of the most relevant and interesting aspects of GW is to be blind.

A player with 3 heroes only control half of the team 64 skills. This seriously gimp the experience regarding team building.

Yes, it is not necessary to create a 64 skills team build to finish the game story.

But then I don't understand why the rage against something like ursan blessing, the number of limited useful skills amongst the hundreds of skills in the game or how the titles made people focus on a single character instead of learning and savoring several different professions (another thing that made me play GW - different playstylse characters).

Again, PUG play is dying because of lack of players that like to PUG and game expansion over the years (zaishen quests and nicholas are things that improve the PUG play, among other things) the same way PvP is dying due the lack of PvP players and due to no monetary tournaments that attract professional/semi professional players and increase the general population attention to the PvP competition.

byteme! · Aug 03, 2009, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ate of DK

No 7 heroes please, for various reasons mentioned allready. Thank you.

Those same reasons got shot down already. You did mean those reasons right?

Swehurn · Aug 03, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Sorry if this is a lil off-topic...but the game itself seems to recommend more heroes!

It's been mentioned above, but heroes suit my playstyle (and free time) better than a lot of real players. They allow me to be "rude" and go afk to deal with a work phone call mid-mission without complaining, and they can be infinitely better than henchies...

Daesu · Aug 03, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Human SC teams are already overpowered. Having 7 heroes would actually be a handicap compared to a full human team.

Instead of forcing players to party up, we should force more heroes into each team because PvE is already too easy.

UnChosen · Aug 03, 2009, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Human SC teams are already overpowered. Having 7 heroes would actually be a handicap compared to a full human team.

Instead of forcing players to party up, we should force more heroes into each team because PvE is already too easy.

Once again...Speed Clears are only like 1% of the game! And like I said before for the remaining 99% of the game human groups with full overpowered skills only come up on par with heroes just because there isn't some crazy split-up gimmick that can be abused.

Ex. My Guild group using every overpowered gimmick skills in the book + cons, managed to clear ferndale in 25min, but I had to wait more than 15min to gather everyone. Using Discordway + cons, I clear ferndale in 35 min, but I didn't have to wait for anyone, so even though the human group were better the heroes still came out on top by 5min. And that was BEFORE the CoP and RoJ nerf....I imagine right now the difference is even greater, and will get worse once they nerf Shadow Form as well. (And I'm quite sure they will)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Easy to fail missions that take you back to outpost, lack of a more universal grouping system, having to stay in the outpost while waiting for a party, not being able to replace leavers, not being able to join mid-mission, not being able to kick grievers/leechers, etc.

Not to mention 0 incentives to actually group in the first place, having the same loot for soloing and grouping is almost like a punishment for actually trying to group. At least have a "grouping" title or something. Or create some new un-tradable items that only drop when its a full human group.

The funny thing is that I used to not care so much about the heroes because I believed that stuff like Ursan, CoP and Speed Clear, and the various other group farms are the incentives for grouping...ya I was quite naive to think they wouldn't be nerfed

.

Daesu · Aug 04, 2009, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Once again...Speed Clears are only like 1% of the game! And like I said before for the remaining 99% of the game human groups with full overpowered skills only come up on par with heroes just because there isn't some crazy split-up gimmick that can be abused.

Ex. My Guild group using every overpowered gimmick skills in the book + cons, managed to clear ferndale in 25min, but I had to wait more than 15min to gather everyone. Using Discordway + cons, I clear ferndale in 35 min, but I didn't have to wait for anyone, so even though the human group were better the heroes still came out on top by 5min. And that was BEFORE the CoP and RoJ nerf....I imagine right now the difference is even greater, and will get worse once they nerf Shadow Form as well. (And I'm quite sure they will)

1. Speed Clears are definitely more than 1% of the game. They are very common and they happen everyday.
2. Since you didn't post the "overpowered gimmick skills" your team used, it is hard to judge if you are really making full use of your PvE skills and your synergies.
3. The 15 minutes that you used to gather everyone should not be counted in because it depends on the individuals. If everyone is responsibile and on time, the waiting time should be close to 0. One trick you can try, is to tell everyone to meet at a certain time but make it 15mins before you actually want them to meet. This way they would probably be ontime and your waiting time would be almost 0.

Quote:

Not to mention 0 incentives to actually group in the first place, having the same loot for soloing and grouping is almost like a punishment for actually trying to group. At least have a "grouping" title or something. Or create some new un-tradable items that only drop when its a full human group.

The funny thing is that I used to not care so much about the heroes because I believed that stuff like Ursan, CoP and Speed Clear, and the various other group farms are the incentives for grouping...ya I was quite naive to think they wouldn't be nerfed

There are already lots of incentive to group together. 24 overpowered PvE skills per team instead of 3, for one. Also easier if you control just your own character without the need to micro heroes, which I often need to when they are attacked by AoE spells, for another. Humans can also hold items which heroes can't, which makes human players a requirement for certain missions. Human healers can also prioritize healing important NPCs better which makes them indispensable in many missions if you dont want to fail. So on and so forth, I can name more but I dont have the time right now to do so.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 04, 2009, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Playing with other people is already a million incentives not to group.

Bluefeather · Aug 04, 2009, 03:23 AM // 03:23

For those who say that 7-Hero will make GW a non-MMO game. I just want to point out that for the past 4 years, I haven't seen PUG bigger than 8 and i havent seen anyone in explorable areas other than my own team. If an 8-man PUG is considered an MMO, then we have to re-define MMO.

We have MMO in Spamadan (and in PvP outpost which i don't visit). But not in explorable area. So having 7-Hero will not make this game non-mmo.